Losing contact with mount - USB Hub Problem?

[K Michael McDowell]

Hi Bob - ACP continues to work well, with the exception that it is losing contact with my mount during some runs. The message in the logs suggests it is losing contact with the telescope. Specifically: [**HARDWARE OR DRIVER ERROR**]07:19:55 [Source: ASCOM.HyperionServer.CP210X]
07:19:55 [Communication Failure]
07:19:55 [This is not an ACP problem] (See attached logs)
While this message from the log suggests it is the Hyperion controller, it is really the mount that goes away. This happened twice last evening. The first time I was able to see in ACP that the contact with the mount was lost while the rotator and focuser, which are controlled by the Hyperion software were still connected to ACP and Focus Max, respectively. I had the Hyperion controller attached directly to my laptop but the mount and cameras were connected through my powered USB hub. I had this problem before and decided it was likely the USB hub, which I swapped out for a new one. But the problem persists.
I know this is not a ACP problem but I was wondering if you had seen this before and/or someone out there knows about reliable USB hubs that won't lose connections.
Thanks, Mike

[Bob Denny]

The error is coming from the “Hyperion controller”. I’m unsure what that is… I tried to look them up and I see it’s an astronomy store maybe here in Arizona… I got a lot of references to the Prism software ha ha. Anyway the error says that it was the Hyperion that lost contact with the mount. It’s getting warmer, so you probably have a soft USB hub or power source.

[Eric Dose]

Yeah, the $10-20 USB hubs do not get the job done for astronomy--at all.

I've used an industrial USB hub, which is designed to continue working 24/7 under RF noise, line noise, high and low temperatures, etc. Huge and rock-stable power available out the ports. Never failed in 7 years and counting. StarTech makes them, and no doubt others. About $40-80 depending on number of ports. By far the most cost-effective telescope upgrade I ever made.

And this might be a good place to repeat the First Rule of Astro USB: Never route a camera through a USB hub.
Second USB rule: throw away cheap/suspect USB cords. I cut them in half out of pure spite.
Third rule: cable strain relief is your friend. Tape or cable-tie those suckers, each maybe 15-20 cm from the port. Especially on the scope which is waving around all night.
And maybe a fourth rule: just when you think Microsoft has stopped changing your USB Suspend settings, yeah, check them again.

Good luck.

[K Michael McDowell]

Hi Eric - Thanks for the suggestions. I have what I thought was a pretty solid powered USB hub but perhaps it is not up to the task. I have a StarTech 7-port hub on the way. We'll see if that improves things.
With respect to your "rules" I'm afraid I have routinely broken the first one, so far without issue. I only have two USB ports on my laptop so if I followed your rule, I would have my main camera and guide camera attached to the computer but would be out of luck for, mount, focuser, and rotator which really wouldn't work very well. I am, however, pretty good with cable management so I'm with you there.
Thanks again, Mike

[K Michael McDowell]

Bob - The scope is from Starizona here in Tucson, it is one of two models they make. The Hyperion controller doesn't talk to the mount at all, as far as I know. It controls the focuser, rotator, cooling fans, and element heaters on the telescope itself but has no connection to the mount. I'm thinking the "Hyperion controller" comes from the name I have given to the observatory but I don't really know.
I'm going to try plugging the mount USB cable directly into my only spare USB port on the computer. Not sure what else to try other than perhaps another USB hub. I'll let you know what happens.
Thanks, Mike

[Peter Prendergast]

I'll echo ALL of Eric's observations they are ALL correct.
I used the Eaglepro series computers mounted to the back of the scope, directly connecting just about
everything straight to the computer. End of USB problems.
NEVER had a problem with LAN based equipment.
Peter

[Bob Denny]

Thanks Peter, and...

NEVER had a problem with LAN based equipment.

One of the motivations and objectives of Alpaca - to offer a better alternative to USB cables, hubs, and USB-Serial converters.

[Eric Dose]

USB frankly works fine if you just take care of business. Best practices have been out there for a decade now. But to expect that home-printer-level USB is good enough for astronomy--yes, that ends in tears.

LAN/ethernet PC-to-gear connectivity may be fine for an isolated scope, but it's not at all clear to me how it could ever be practical in a scope-hosting environment having tens of scopes on one LAN, with scopes moving in and out all the time. An IP-addressing/cross-talk nightmare of nightmares.

[K Michael McDowell]

Hi Eric - In my continuing efforts to eliminate the issued I am having; I ordered a StarTech industrial USB hub that hopefully with be good. I am also curious about what you consider to be a worthy USB cable. So, if you have a specific brand or grade of cable that you think is best for our application? I would appreciate your thoughts on how to get good cables. Most of the cables I am using came with the device to which they are attached. But other than that, I presumed that most all cables were more or less equal. You clearly have a different opinion about that so I would like to know what you consider to be good cables.
Thanks, Mike

[Eric Dose]

Speaking from my own experience, so grains of salt and all that:

I used to count on Belkin Gold or Belkin Pro cables for everything, as I've never had one fail, not even under abuse like repetitive torsion (as through a very tight MX+ mount pass-through). I can't find Belkin Gold or Pro any more, but it's worth hunting them. Recently I've used StarTech cables to good effect in the cold.

Cables already packaged with higher-end equipment are usually matched to the task. I count on this being especially true for equipment whose makers also make good cables, like StarTech...though 3 years ago and to my surprise I did have one USB 3.0 cable from StarTech fail, so I guess it can happen from any vendor.

By contrast, those cheap vinyl-and-foil cables that come with low-end hubs etc--yuck, I usually bag them separately and never use them. I think the main thing is just not to use those. And personally I don't buy cables on eBay--who knows what those really are.

On failure, consider that it may be the USB port, not the cable, that is damaged. My experience is that high-end cables are more tolerant of previously abused/loose ports--and strain relief improves reliability, too.

Cheers